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John joins the show this week from the middle of the woods as he and Jack talk about creating your home service business organizational structure, org charts, and the issues with hiring leaders. It’s also peak HVAC business season and that means an inevitable downturn. Are Jack and John prepared for an HVAC shoulder season? Will John find his way out of the woods? Give a listen to this week’s show, hear about organizational structure for small business owners, and get a massive knowledge level-up on how to grow your business through hiring.
Episode Hosts: 🎤
John Wilson: @WilsonCompanies on Twitter
Jack Carr: @TheHVACJack on Twitter
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John Wilson, CEO of Wilson Companies
https://www.wilsonplumbingandheating.com
Jack Carr, CEO of Rapid HVAC
https://rapidhvactn.com
Owned and Operated Episode 134 Transcript
John Wilson: I'm John Wilson. Welcome to Owned and Operated. Twice a week, we talk about home service businesses, and if you're a home service entrepreneur, then this is going to be the show for you. We talk about our own business in residential, plumbing, HVAC, and electric, and we also talk about business models that we just find interesting.
John Wilson: Let's get into it.
John Wilson: Booking every lead that we get has become hugely important. So when we pay all that money and we do all that work to get that phone to ring, we want to make sure that we're booking all of them. We've looked for a lot of different solutions and we ended up landing on Avoca. So Avoca has been hugely impactful in our business.
John Wilson: We launched in late March, early April, and we've already seen an increase in booking rates, which we're really excited about. So what Avoca does is they have a coaching program That listens to all of your calls and basically helps point out the areas that your call center can improve on those calls.
John Wilson: It's active coaching every single day. And it listens to every single call, which is one of the biggest pain points that we've had in our call centers. Whenever we're grading calls, it's manual. You can only listen to one or two at a time. Now we can review 400 phone calls a day easily and we can coach on them quickly.
John Wilson: So the impact has been huge and we've been really great really grateful for Tyson and his team over at Avoca for helping us get our call center in order. He gave us a special code, so if you check out the link below for Avoca and you use the promo code OWNED, O W N E D, you'll get special pricing.
John Wilson: Since you got it from us, so check it out the link below.
Jack Carr: Welcome back to owned and operated with your hosts, Jack Carr and John Wilson. What's going on, John?
John Wilson: Dude wrapping up two weeks up in Michigan with the family. So that was a bunch of fun. So we spent like the first week with my family. In the middle of Michigan, which is right next to Ann Arbor.
John Wilson: And then we spent the second week, which we're wrapping up now in the upper peninsula of Michigan. So you're getting me in my full, like unshowered, I'm going to go for a run after this glory. It's good.
Jack Carr: There you go. That's fun. That's a good time away. How are you able to take time away in the middle of the summer?
Jack Carr: What's the deal there?
John Wilson: I, it's actually easier to take time away in the summer than it is the winter. Cause in the summer, like no one needs pushed, like the weather's pushing us. But in the winter, when everyone needs, like when someone needs to be putting the foot on the gas, I find it more difficult to take time. But in the summer I, yeah, I tend to find it easier.
Jack Carr: Yeah, that's it's interesting because I think as you're really small and you're really ingrained in the business and all the hats It's very hard. But as you grow I can definitely see That ability because I took a week off actually to for some other things and Yeah, it went smooth very smooth.
Jack Carr: I was incredibly surprised when I got back like besides that one of our trucks got hit We got in a little small accident little fender bender not our fault, but we got that. That was the biggest, like red flag. It was pretty awesome.
John Wilson: Yeah. Yeah. I think the bigger you get, like people just do their jobs.
John Wilson: It only becomes a challenge when the business needs like a big push or you're going through a big push, but if we're in, April. Or September. And it's like a shoulder season for HVC. And we're trying to drive hard and fast to keep leads on the board. And we're, struggling with it.
John Wilson: Then it takes a lot more of a lift from me, but like everyone just executing in July, that's not complicated.
Jack Carr: Yeah, it's almost hard for them not to execute cause there's so much going on and it's so much easy money. In the sense like, yeah, I things are legitimately breaking.
Jack Carr: So there's, it's a lot less offerings, more straightforward, there's more opportunities if you do botch one or two, whereas in the fall you need to be on point because everything is a key. So that makes a lot of sense, actually. Yeah. That's neat that you put it that way. Because I'm starting to feel that move and that lift towards that kind of feeling.
Jack Carr: But how's everything else been going in the business? You've been away, but I'm sure you've been keeping an eye on it. Good. It's been getting a little cooler. Yeah,
John Wilson: good. It's a little cooler this week. So HVAC, honestly, basically just caught up. Because we entered the week sold out. So. We're doing okay.
John Wilson: We're still pacing for a record month, but this week was down, which was a little bit of a bummer. Mainly Mainly from just HVAC sales, but next week's supposed to be pretty hot again, and then we're planning our big shoulder season promos and figuring out how to resolve our shoulder season. So that's like our big current project is how do we attack August and September with like full force.
Jack Carr: Do you feel that you'll see the shoulder season in August this year? Cause technically we generally get our hottest month in August.
John Wilson: We usually see it in September, but what we're trying to do, like the bigger HVAC has become a part of our business, like the more we feel the swings. So HVAC being down will be a four or 500, 000 a month swing for us in September. So what we're trying to do now is as aggressively as we can prepare for that.
John Wilson: So that's like working with our wholesalers to make sure that we have Hey can I get a period of time discount or additional rebate basically per piece of equipment that I sell so that I can be more competitive on pricing. Can I get extra rebate on my financing so I can come up with a better financing promo to offer for the September shoulder season?
John Wilson: Cause October I know this is odd but I think we're up North. So just like we do still have a lot of heating only houses and we service a lot of boiler homes, but October is typically our peak month, not July. Which is very unusual for most companies in our industry, it's usually July. We really only have to worry about September and like thriving in September. So yeah, it's a big project of ours. We're really trying to do it well. So strategically scheduling memberships, how we're thinking about promos, how we're thinking, how we're working with our wholesalers so that, we're Yeah, we have to give a little bit.
John Wilson: They're going to give a little bit too. So it's less painful. So it's pretty collaborative. We're hoping that like most of our like design and copy stuff is due in the next seven days for TV, radio, postcards, and then it's going to start blasting early August through September. And we think that's going to carry us through.
John Wilson: So that'll be like the BOGO, like the buy an air conditioner, get a free furnace. That, that type of program is what we'll be running.
Jack Carr: Interesting. Interesting. Yeah. We should circle back. Most
John Wilson: of my brain is, yeah, most of my brain right now is like trying to live in whatever the next difficult period is going to be so we can solve it before we get there.
Jack Carr: Yeah. We should definitely circle back on this. I think this could be an entire episode in itself because this is huge for us. We have a bunch of plans as well. Or ramping up in certain areas and D ramping and others that we know. We probably shouldn't be having as much money in.
Jack Carr: So very interesting stuff. I think that's a big question for a lot of HVAC companies out there too. It's I don't know any single one besides two people who don't do this in summer and then fall and then winter. There's two, two of you guys who have managed to like really line that out up into the right.
Jack Carr: So it's beautiful. It's a beautiful thing to see. It's a beautiful thing to feel when the time actually comes to fruition. I think when you.
John Wilson: And when you the other person is Rich Jordan for the listener. But I think when you start I think it's stuff like, like doing exactly what I said, like how do we plan?
John Wilson: Like we were, we grew in quarter one. We've talked a lot about that. We had a crazy quarter one. We actually did more revenue in quarter one than we did in quarter four. That's never happened to me before. Like my revenue in February was higher than my revenue in July of 23. That's insane. That's never happened.
Jack Carr: Truly.
John Wilson: What we didn't talk about was the seven months of preparation that we put into that. So that would happen. We didn't talk about the wholesale discounts and programs that we set up. We didn't talk about our strategic membership scheduling. We didn't talk about the SDRs.
John Wilson: We probably touched on it, but that took seven months. So like this September, the reason we're probably going to win when most people like you just said, don't. Is I'm concerned about December. Like I was negotiating these deals in June for September.
Jack Carr: Yeah. So
John Wilson: we're living, 30 days or 90 days out.
John Wilson: And that's how we're going to win.
Jack Carr: Yeah, I agree. That, that's the only way to really get there, to get ahead of the ball. So I actually reached out to my rep today to talk about that exact thing. So I'm 60 days out, not 90, but same idea as we need, cause if you can survive the shoulder season, HVAC is an easy business, If you're just running winter and summer all year round, it really is not that difficult to win.
Jack Carr: Not everybody has that luxury. We all don't live in Arizona, Las Vegas, or Central Florida. We have to compete. We have to be ready for it.
John Wilson: We have to plan. Yeah,
Jack Carr: and you have to plan which is awesome. Yeah, man, that's great. That sounds like really good that you guys are doing well, you're able to get away July has been a wonderful month.
Jack Carr: So for us, it's been interesting. We are like we talk. I mean we talk about this a lot but the culling of the business that when I bought that plumbing company, we had to cut a decent portion of the remodel work. And so we are just coming out of that. That was. We bought that business in March.
Jack Carr: We cut it in April or May, and now it's June, July, and we're just getting our feet under us and coming around that curve. So we've hired some ex Hoffman employees. Hey, yo great XR training. They got, they're very good salespeople and they understand the focus on service.
Jack Carr: Whereas before the old employees really, we've been trying to meld them and train them into that kind of service sales mentality and it's been difficult. Yeah, honestly. And so now we have that model is actually, we have the people in the right places and we're starting to just see Hey, we're selling tankless today, a tank tomorrow, boom, repipe the next day.
Jack Carr: Like it's starting to the ball is starting to roll. It feels good. It feels really good. And then HVAC's HVAC somewhere, man. You can't lose HVAC and HVAC in summer.
John Wilson: Yeah. HVAC is funny. It's, we have to manage HVAC advertising more than the other trades. Like our LSAs for HVAC almost are never on because if we turn them on, we'll drown.
John Wilson: So we just turned them on, I think for the first time this year, yesterday, just to assist a little bit. But Danny, I, I. I really don't even know that we'll need them on as of next week because it's going to get hot again and then we're going to turn around and we have to do 2, 000 heating tune ups.
John Wilson: Right. 2, 700. It does HVAC's weird. Whereas if you have enough memberships you really don't ever, I can understand how advertising turns off. For HVAC like the lead type advertising.
Jack Carr: Yeah. We actually culled an entire GMB worth of it because we have, actually, I don't know if I want to talk about this.
Jack Carr: There's definitely some strategy and HVAC eats up the entire budget. Let's just say that of any kind of multi faceted. Budgeting you're doing if you do plumbing and hvac together in the middle of summer hvac We'll just eat that entire budget and you'll get one call for plumbing So you have to be very cognizant of that going into it.
Jack Carr: Otherwise you learn like me the hard way that
John Wilson: yeah
Jack Carr: But in the same we learned that read like
John Wilson: a couple years ago
Jack Carr: Yeah, in the same thread though, like having the plumbing maintenance has been absolutely game changing. In the same way that you're talking about shoulder season, we've essentially created a shoulder season for ourself in plumbing, in this interim.
Jack Carr: And hey, throwing in plumbing maintenance has absolutely saved our ass. So we're really happy about that.
John Wilson: Yeah. I think we're going to end up adding in. Drain to our maintenance. We've been talking about it for a few months, but we've been struggling to get our, like more drain guys onto the team. We also don't push heavy besides LSA. We're not like doing billboards or TV or even mailers for drains.
John Wilson: But we see that as like a big opportunity to grow that team and take it. We're at five drain cleaning techs now. And, we could just push heavy. Add our membership, add it to our membership, like one free drain cleaning a year, and we'd probably need to hire three techs for it. But right now we run five purely off of just like demand calls.
Jack Carr: It would be crazy to run something like one free camera a year. Cause in those cameras, you're going to find that cast and you're going to find the completely that's what people do.
John Wilson: Yeah. People and people in our group chat are doing exactly that.
Jack Carr: That's amazing. Yeah. I could definitely see that absolutely working.
Jack Carr: But yeah, today we had a a internal discussion before the podcast. You're going through some. Large organizational chart changes. Do you want to talk about that a little bit? What's that stemming from and what does it look like? Yeah, I know. That's always a pertinent question.
John Wilson: I never thought I would say this, but I actually started to like Facebook again. So we started a Facebook group a couple weeks ago, and it's been growing really fast. It's 50 to 60 members a week right now, which has just been awesome. Engagement's been awesome. We're learning. People are sharing really valuable stuff.
John Wilson: Honestly, it's just been a lot of fun. To be able to engage so closely with people in my industry. It's something that I miss missed a lot. So if you're interested in talking to other folks from home service primarily plumbing, HVAC and electrical, check out our Facebook group. So it's plumbing, HVAC and electrical business growth hosted by owned and operated and check the link below.
John Wilson: Yeah. So our org chart org charts are funny because like they adapt and grow a lot. As a business grows and gets more complicated and like an examples would be service managers and install managers. And then you add in plumbing and suddenly there's a plumbing manager or an electric manager.
John Wilson: And, you just keep going. So where we've found ourselves is our organization is about 140 people, including Contractors. And we run a trade vertical stack. So the way, what that means is like our departments are by trade. So all the way up to like senior leadership, they're by trade.
John Wilson: And that's going to be like, there's a plumbing dispatcher, there's plumbing service manager, plumbing install manager, a plumbing operations manager. And like we've really segmented it down to trade and that's how we got here and that's how most people get somewhere. Like very few people do what we're gonna plan on moving to off of the RIP.
John Wilson: I don't know that I've ever heard of anyone doing it off the RIP. Most people do exactly that. They have their HVAC team, their plumbing team, their electric team, their drains team, there's a manager under each one and that's just how they fit. And that worked to get us up to where we are now. But the problem is now what we're finding is it's, it takes like switching power.
John Wilson: So the teams now are really big. And so we have four service managers, three install managers. Three operational heads, four dispatchers, three or four install coordinators. And until now they've all been segmented by trade. So I'm going to describe what that looks like really quick. And I think it's easy to see where we're going with this, but like the way one service manager call by call does something is totally different than how the other three call by calls do it.
John Wilson: Because they are reporting different verticals. They have different, like they have direct to a different operations head, or they have different teams or, so their SOPs are different and it's complicated. The way the install leaders do it is different. The way the dispatchers, the way they do it is a little bit different because, Oh, this is how electric does it.
John Wilson: This is how HVAC does it. And what ends up happening is it's really hard to train and retain and move and promote people. And so that's one big one. Two, it's just complicated. I would say unnecessarily complicated. And something that we continue to learn is it's very easy to make something complicated and it's much harder to make it simple.
John Wilson: So we've definitely overcomplicated it. And the final one is whenever there's an issue, it goes vertical instead of horizontal, which is probably the most disruptive thing that we're trying to solve. Go ahead. What was your question?
Jack Carr: Yeah. So just to reiterate, so you're the actual move itself is you're getting rid of the essentially departmental title to each position.
Jack Carr: So if you're a service manager, you're a service manager across multiple trades.
John Wilson: No. So we're not quite doing, we're not quite doing that. So what we're planning on doing is like Instead of, so the way we think of our teams now is our teams are by trade. And instead of doing it by trade, we're going to do it by discipline.
John Wilson: So like dispatch dispatches where this started. So three months ago, we're like, we're going from three to five dispatchers. Right now. And that was complicated the way we were like thinking through that. Cause all of their direct reports are different. They each report to someone different. They each have different one on ones, different structure, different whatever, and and we're getting ready to scale that up, because we need after hours dispatch, and we need weekends dispatch, because the team, they're like, we have 30 grand a day that sells after 4 p.
John Wilson: m. when most of the dispatch team leaves. So we have to like augment that. So we're trying to work through okay, how's this look? And we were talking, we started talking to more and more people. And we're like, I don't think this is just a dispatch problem. I think that dispatch is the first time we're like really taking a look at this.
John Wilson: But I think, we had a plumbing install coordinator and an HVAC install coordinator. And that really doesn't make a lot of sense because they're like, it should just be one team. That was where it started, was okay. Instead of it by trade, we should be looking at this by discipline. So our dispatch should be its own team where they train and retain themselves, promote from within that team.
John Wilson: And if someone's out sick, then they cover for themselves. Whereas previously, if a dispatcher was out sick, that would go vertical. So their service manager would cover or their trade manager would cover. So now another dispatch is going to cover. So it goes horizontal. It's just less disruptive to the organization. Install coordination was the next one. We're like, okay, that should be a discipline focus. Like we all have to pull permits. We have to do drawings. We have to do all these things. Like we should be able to just do those for all the trades. We're leaving the like front frontline managers by trade. So plumbing service manager, HVAC service manager, install managers, like those are specialty still to us.
John Wilson: But then what we're doing is instead of the service managers, they each report to a different ops leader. They're instead going to report to a senior service manager and then to a sales, a director of sales. So the director of sales is going to oversee sales and service because that's the same specialty in our mind.
John Wilson: And then there will be a director of fulfillment that all the install managers report to, and that's the structure.
Jack Carr: That's interesting. So have you seen this at a different company? Did you see this on a Peterman walkthrough or anything like that? Like where did this idea come from?
John Wilson: Yeah. So we. We started barking down this tree 90 days ago when we started trying to figure out we the problem came up in a couple different ways one We talked about this on the podcast and like in the company But remember that options problem from April and like how that was just a miss from top to bottom Like when that happened, we started being like, okay What is wrong with our structure that would even make this possible?
John Wilson: And one of the things we found is that our trade managers are like incredibly talented people who are like, they're going to stay with us. And like we're excited to keep working with them. It's just the position's changing a little bit, but. We're like, man, they just have too much going on.
John Wilson: We're like one minute. They have to focus on like running a good sales team. Then they have to focus on running a good service team. Then they have to focus on maximizing revenue through install. And it's just too much switching. Like that's too different. And it used to be like, Oh, it's all plumbing back when we had 10 people, but now plumbing is 40 people.
John Wilson: No it's more than that. So we started working on this back when that problem happened and then the dispatch thing pushed us even further into it. So we mocked up an org chart and we started just talking to other owners. And the funny, I, it was it was like, it was funny because everyone that we spoke with.
John Wilson: Had gone through the same journey that we did. We talked with we talked with which is a firm down in Columbus and they had just done it six months prior. And they're only like a couple million bucks bigger than us. We talked to Peterman and Chad had just done this a few years prior.
John Wilson: I'm trying to remember everyone that people were really like gracious with their time. We talked to Eco and they had done it. Maybe two or three years ago. So everyone had done it in all for the same reasons. And then what really what really kickstarted it for us is we're starting to prep to go regional again, like multi location and I realized that our current structure, if I was going to launch brand new, I would never replicate our current org chart.
John Wilson: Like I just wouldn't do it. I would have a service leader and install leader. And that was like. The icing on the cake where it's okay, this is the right. This is the right decision. But it's a big upheaval. It affects almost everyone on the org chart.
Jack Carr: Definitely. It also does something really cool though, that I don't think you mentioned is it, we talk about it a lot.
Jack Carr: Like when you put somebody in this place and you separate CSR from dispatcher, you're doing that because you want to have somebody be the best at a singular thing. Yeah. And for a dispatcher, this is generalist to specialist,
John Wilson: baby ,
Jack Carr: generalist to specialist. And that thing is not necessarily trade specific.
Jack Carr: So even though they have a trade, yeah, there's no benefit for a dispatcher to be. Plumbing dispatch versus HVAC dispatch, other than some very minor understanding of the techs, what they're good at. But a lot of that's now mitigated by the AI and scheduling pro and whatnot. So that's really neat because it actually allows your sales team to do service and sales.
Jack Carr: It allows your install team to be managed by people that are only worried about fulfillment and installation. Really, Makes people do what they're best at so that's great. I think that's gonna be a huge win. Yeah Sounds like a lot of work though
John Wilson: It's a lot and it was inch it was hinted yeah, it's a lot It's a lot of work and it was interesting because like some of the positions that we're starting to add in don't currently exist So if we're not, we'll need an HVAC sales manager now, because we didn't have one, but HVAC has three salespeople.
John Wilson: And then we'll need a training and management develop. Cause that's previously been a training and development manager, sorry, and that's previously been managed in the trade verticals. Then we have to add in the tops of these, which are really big hires for us, like we're intimidated by it it's director level hires.
John Wilson: Each one's going to oversee four or five managers. So the first one that we're working on is a director of sales, which that's not a position that even Brandon or myself feel like we could fill. Like we don't feel like we have that skillset in the company right now. To run that type of, Hey, who's ever run five sales leaders underneath them?
John Wilson: Cause that's what the, that's what it is. It's four service managers and HVAC sales manager and the inside sales supervisor. and 45 sales reps. It's a big position, 26 million of output this year, 35 something next year. But we just don't have that in house. So
Jack Carr: extremely unique. But I think that you're going to have the interesting part, which a lot of people I don't think, or maybe they do.
Jack Carr: But it was definitely eyeopening for me is when you're looking for people to fill these positions there's nobody who's done this before, really. You have a handful of companies that are bigger than you across the nation. Yep. And they these positions didn't exist ten years ago. This is a new movement and growth of the industry.
Jack Carr: Yeah. And so now we're looking at
John Wilson: It's a real pain point. It's a real pain point for us because, and I've mentioned this before, even with HVAC sales managers or service managers, like there, there's no big dog. There's no big dog. We're the big dog. And for a position Like this position does exist.
John Wilson: It does not exist in Northeast Ohio. There might be two of this position in Ohio. So it, it is going to be a, it's going to be a real challenge to find someone. And that's why it's such a specialty skillset, but we know the right person inside the organization is going to help us move towards a hundred million.
John Wilson: But yeah, this it's a new, it's a new position. There's just not many of them out there.
Jack Carr: Yeah. Even at the lower levels, you can still see the difficulty in finding general managers who have done stuff like this. Service managers. There's just not that many people. Versus an accountant.
Jack Carr: Like an accountant, you can go out and dime a dozen. How are you, um, dealing with that? Are you guys planning on relocating someone into the area? What's the strategy for fulfilling these high level positions that they're not there? Car salesman.
John Wilson: Most of the, the only one, we are opening up the pool.
John Wilson: Like it's, there might be, I dunno, under 50 of this position in the entire U S of people that have sat in this position for plumbing HVAC electric. It's just not really a thing. So we're going to open up the pool. We think that solar could be a good fit. And that likely has more candidates. We think that roofing could be a good fit.
John Wilson: So we're open to, it's basically any in home sales direct to homeowners. And close on the spots. That's the pool that we're looking at. And it's definitely going to be a relocation. Because there just isn't one of these in Northeast Ohio. It's a big opportunity for somebody. The other positions we do feel like we could potentially fill in house.
John Wilson: It's just this one is Oh, we just don't have this. We don't have this human being. So right now we're just like, How do we find him?
Jack Carr: Very interesting. I'm excited for you and seeing how this goes because I know it's going to be a lot but that sounds like a really great move. Yeah, I can't even wrap my head around 140 people. I think we just got to 22 All right. 22 individuals. So yeah, we're finally staffed up. Yeah. But luckily you're going into this, like in a labor market that's actually manageable.
Jack Carr: First, like 2022, the labor market was just so rough and now it's soft and just enough that you can find people. Yeah,
John Wilson: yeah. I mean, yeah, we haven't had I don't know that we've had a huge issue finding people
John Wilson: in a couple of years, maybe a little bit, but We've really been doing okay for a year and a half.
Jack Carr: Congratulations. I don't know if that's from the smaller operators I talked to. It's a big lift to try and get people even in the door. Like we've focused on apps. What I
John Wilson: suspect, I think it's a different problem.
John Wilson: So we went to a next hour regional meeting last week and and Brandon went. I didn't. But he said that the, like it's July. And he said most of the people at the meeting were smaller operators sub 7, 8 million. And they, like a lot of them were having their guys work around the warehouse because they literally couldn't put anything on the schedule.
John Wilson: So I suspect labor market softening is companies are shrinking. Companies can't keep their guys busy. I saw a SIM for a company in my market the other day and they're down, they were down maybe four or five points from 22
John Wilson: again in 24, probably by 10 percent and it's the same thing. They're just, we talk about it a ton on this show, but like LSA stopped working. And people figure out how to drive leads outside of LSAs. So their guys just aren't working, so nobody's hiring. So I think it's less. It's not like there's suddenly a talent pool available.
John Wilson: It's just that no one else is hiring.
Jack Carr: That's interesting. Yeah, it's an interesting perspective. I've never chewed on it that way, but potentially, that would make sense because that's a very hard range of the market returning back to sub or pre 2022 levels. In addition to, hey, you guys have just have been living in on easy mode for the past six years with LSA and now that turns off and those two like things combined make it very difficult to hold people.
Jack Carr: That's neat, man. Yeah,
John Wilson: I think so.
Jack Carr: I don't know if I don't want to beat the dead horse here because I know we're coming up on time, but I appreciate it. Did you have anything else today for our wonderful, beautiful, handsome listeners?
John Wilson: I don't think so. Make sure you check out the Facebook group. Make sure you check out Owens and operated. com and we do have our September workshop coming up. So if you're interested, check it out. It should be
Jack Carr: It's going to be great. I'm so excited for this next workshop. I hope to see all there. There's going to be so much value.
Jack Carr: I'm really excited. So thank you all. Have a good one and listen to us next week.
John Wilson: Thanks for tuning in to owned and operated the podcast for home service entrepreneurs. If you enjoyed today's episode, please hit the like button and subscribe to the podcast. If you have any questions or topics you'd like us to cover, Feel free to reach out.
John Wilson: You can find me on Twitter at Wilson companies. I'll see you next time
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