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Cassie Niekamp returns for round two! The owner of a fencing business in Columbus, she and Jack Carr discuss the unique challenges and opportunities in the fencing industry, especially in relation to the economy and market diversification. They’ll also look into business models, B2B marketing strategies, operational efficiencies, and the significance of customer service. What are the risks and rewards of government contracts, the utility of digital tools for improving sales processes, and the vital role of subcontractors in managing workloads?
Episode Hosts: 🎤
John Wilson: @WilsonCompanies on Twitter
Jack Carr: @TheHVACJack on Twitter
Cassi Niekamp: @cassiniekamp on Twitter
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John Wilson, CEO of Wilson Companies
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Owned and Operated Episode #122 Transcript
John: I'm John Wilson. Welcome to Owned and Operated. Twice a week, we talk about home service businesses, and if you're a home service entrepreneur, then this is going to be the show for you. We talk about our own business in residential plumbing, HVAC, and electric, and we also talk about business models that we just find interesting.
John: Let's get into it.
Jack Carr: Are you currently Dumping money into the PPC pit of despair. Well, that's how I used to feel before I started working with service scalers. I would waste money with two, three, four other agencies. Then I started working with service scalers and they were able to drive meaningful leads in my business. And now it's one of our cheapest paid lead generation platforms.
Jack Carr: They specialize in PPC, SEO, and LSA management. So if you're looking to increase meaningful leads in any of those areas, I would give them a shout out and see what they can do for you.
John: Thanks for joining us again on owned and operated. Today's the second half of our conversation with Cassie Niekamp, who has a fencing business down in Columbus.
John: I hope you enjoyed it as much as we did.
Cassi Niekamp: Let me give you two differences though in fencing that doesn't apply to plumbing. Plumbing does not depend on the economy. Fencing and residential highly does people do not, um, Q4 and Q1 of this year were highly soft for residential. Um, we just couldn't get conversions where they typically were.
Cassi Niekamp: And so in a, in a down market, it is good to diversify in a market like Columbus, that's just building like crazy. Like there's so much infrastructure being built and then. Um, for security, even in down years, you know, there's, there's theft in commercial properties like that keeps us quite busy, um, repairs, gate operators, all, all of those sorts of product lines.
Cassi Niekamp: And then for us being a small but mighty team. There's a lot of efficiencies in larger projects. Like less. There's just like less material ordering, less permitting. Mm-hmm. , um, responsibilities. Le like, there's just more efficiencies, so like the juice is worth the squeeze there because we can get more efficient
Jack Carr: if it makes you feel better.
Jack Carr: Cassie, I also, I also like B2B the way that you do. Um, when John and I did an exercise a few, few months ago about which businesses are our dream businesses and all of John's were residential landscaping, residential, this direct to consumer that all of mine were business B2B, B2B, B2B, because, um, I think I'm more operationally minded as well and, and really good at those efficiencies.
Jack Carr: Um, but. With that being said, I get to have fun with, uh, the general public, which are known to be sane and, um, level headed at reasonable at all times, especially in downed markets.
Cassi Niekamp: You know, I'd have to run the numbers because we oftentimes do, we don't do any residential repairs, honestly, we only do commercial repairs.
Cassi Niekamp: So, I'd have to run the numbers, I don't have them top of mind, but I would say close to 15. 15 to 10 percent gut check. And the thing about repairs too, is like, it's almost a customer service play. So one of our big customers is XBO logistics. They needed like. He sent me an email and said, Hey, um, we have a post leaning.
Cassi Niekamp: We're going to pass, we're going to fail inspection. So I sent two guys over there yesterday, same day, got it straightened. It was 275. Like I'm not getting rich off of 275 service calls. But the moral of that story is he just depends on us in such a high level for all of his projects that that that's part of our customer service to attend to him in Even as painful, even as painful as those small visits will be.
Jack Carr: So speaking of that marketing, um, to backtrack. So how are you pushing forward through and really driving that B2B marketing? Because if that's the direction you're going, what's the, what's the plan and outlook to get there?
Cassi Niekamp: Um, yeah, that was a big, um, expense in December. We got a new website. partnered with service scalers.
Cassi Niekamp: They've been doing great. Uh, every week. Um, consistently I get lower cost per lead and higher cost per click. So um, we are only doing digital marketing and last year I did a mailer to some of the local builders exchange. Um, I didn't see the needle move there, but it's kind of like I have a nice little postcard that has some of our visuals on it and I got up maybe a handful of leads from it, but it is all digital, all online.
Cassi Niekamp: So I also didn't know you had to like, I was the one in the class who I didn't know that you had to like go in and book that call.
Jack Carr: So you're just paying for them to come in and in
Cassi Niekamp: fact, service scalers has been checking that for me. It's so eye catching. I think on a, on a Google search, like you can't help but not.
Cassi Niekamp: I love the placement. I love where it's at. So I still want to participate there, but it's not my favorite.
Jack Carr: Well, and like John said, it's for residential mostly. So, I mean, idealistically it's for residential. So if you're really trying to grow the GC side, it's very difficult. It's more, that's what I have a trouble wrapping my head around is the, the relationship building that's required in B2B marketing.
Jack Carr: Um,
Cassi Niekamp: I think it's huge. I don't think it can be under, you know, stated enough, but without a solid web presence, like I just don't think you're, you're winning, you know, when people say, I don't know about you, but they go to check out our website, see examples of our work and read our reviews. And you're like, Hmm, okay, this person or this company is legit.
Cassi Niekamp: Yeah. So I think it's a, uh, almost like a portfolio rather than taking somebody down a customer journey. It's literally like, this is who we are
Jack Carr: with that. I do have a question. So, I mean, we started off at a very similar point, right? We, I was a sub 1 million company. We made about 7, 800, 000 our first year.
Jack Carr: You did that. Do you feel the velocity now that You guys are getting to this 3 million mark. You're actually hiring, uh, more people. You're hiring office managers. Is that velocity feel like it's taking off or does it just feel like more stress?
Cassi Niekamp: It still feels like a grind. It feels like a slog, you know?
Cassi Niekamp: And one day I'm like, I see the fruits of my labor. I see this coming together. Um, a great example is that my brother in law, um, I've dreamt of him joining the business since we've started, and he just joined in January. Like, that is a huge add that I couldn't wait to have him on the team. And I'm so excited about his contributions.
Cassi Niekamp: And then, um, Um, like last week we messed up insurance billing and I found out that I've been actually paying 100 percent of some of our employees benefits for like the tune of seven or eight months and we didn't catch it. And I'm like, how, how did we make this mistake? You know? Um. Yeah. It still feels like a real grind.
Cassi Niekamp: You know, I'm, I'm at the point where I would like to be a little less emotional about the business. Like I think I should be, you know, um, I go home and I think about it even though I sh I shouldn't, and I don't want to, but I do. Um, I wake up at two or 3 a. m. with a thought, you know, and it's like, when will this stop?
Cassi Niekamp: You know?
Jack Carr: So if it makes you feel any better, Misery loves company. And as a similar size business to you are now trying to break that 5 million mark. We are on track. Uh, yes, 100%. All of those feelings are valid to the point where I was up till 1 p. m. or 1 a. m. last night. guys so much for watching. If you're interested in a series on Meta Perspective, or any other
Cassi Niekamp: topics, come to
Jack Carr: the show's website.
Jack Carr: And I'll see you guys later. Much love. That being said, uh, we have that same issue as well. But what does help me is looking back, like you said, uh, John and I were also talking about before you got on is a year ago today, we were in a storage unit, like we were working out of a storage unit, no building, uh, some coworking space for the office side, our, our, uh, uh, dispatchers.
Jack Carr: Cause we wanted to at least look somewhat the part. And then a year later now, We are actually in our own building and we're on track for 5 million. And if we went from three employees to 15, 16 employees, so it feels good.
Cassi Niekamp: Yeah. And I hope that's
Jack Carr: the same for you as well.
Cassi Niekamp: Awesome. Yeah. I think for me, it's, um, I really want to set my own barrier.
Cassi Niekamp: I guess the word is like boundaries to protecting my mental physical health in pursuit of the grind in pursuit of that growth. And I think that it's just hard to fit it all in in a 24 hour cycle. You know, you're, and, and things start to suffer. My workouts have suffered the most in the three years. And that's just, I am my best self after three years.
Cassi Niekamp: You know, incorporating good workouts in my week. So I've tried to figure out ways that I'm still me in pursuit of this big growth or these big goals or all these demands. So have you found any tricks that are really working for you?
Jack Carr: Um, The only trick that has worked for me is, uh, 5 a. m. Well, technically, 4.
Jack Carr: 45 a. m. is when I wake up because I have the same issue. The gym is a key to my mental health in the morning. And as a dad of three under four, years old. Um, it much similar to you. We, we had the, the twins right before I bought this business.
Cassi Niekamp: Oh my gosh.
Jack Carr: There is no, uh, there's no rest, there's no rest from it.
Jack Carr: And so you just have to make the time.
Cassi Niekamp: Um, but
Jack Carr: yeah, we found the same thing like that. I was smiling and laughing during your whole, um, interview. Having the baby midway through not, not out of, um, like it was a funny thing, but out of the misery loves company in the sense of like, I know that pain,
Cassi Niekamp: um,
Jack Carr: and, and the joy, like I don't want to make it, it's not all bad.
Jack Carr: It's just a lot.
Cassi Niekamp: Um,
Jack Carr: and I commend you heavily for that. That's a, that's an amazing feat.
Cassi Niekamp: Thank you.
Jack Carr: Um, Yeah. And so to, to bring it back to a topic that we were talking about. So can, and this is more for my own personal, um, I've looked at businesses that only Did government contracts and the people who do that, they love it for whatever reason they love the moat that surrounds it.
Jack Carr: They love the ability to grab those large contracts, I guess, because there's pretty low competition. Um, what about getting that government contract? Didn't you like just the large amount of paperwork or was it a low nets or what, what was the deal there
Cassi Niekamp: on this particular contract? And this is the only one I've had exposure to.
Cassi Niekamp: So I just don't know that I've had enough to. actually speak super intelligently about it. And the job's not done yet. So I think, you know, you're catching me kind of between winning the bid and setting an install date. Um, the company we were contracted through is out of Georgia. I've never met them. I've never seen their face.
Cassi Niekamp: I jump on video calls. They don't turn on their video. It's a very cold relationship. Like they have had a lot of trouble with this particular project.
Jack Carr: This episode is sponsored by Home Service Engine. So, this is a company that I would highly recommend if you are thinking about getting onto ServiceTitan, or if you're like me, and you have to rebuild your ServiceTitan every few months because you set it up incorrectly.
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Cassi Niekamp: Um, they chose the cheapest asphalt and concrete contractor and they had to rip up all the concrete. So like this project is literally a year behind schedule and they've had every sort of issue. Well, in the midst of us bidding, we submitted a change order because we lost a, um, a very, uh, competent person who knew how to run this really specific, um, equipment.
Cassi Niekamp: Appreciate it. So we had to do a change order to say, we are no longer equipped to complete this project. We need to bring in another GC to help us with, it's a very specific excavating. Like we're digging like eight feet into the ground to remove old trenches. It's a complex job. Yeah. So basically I said, it's outside of our scope now.
Cassi Niekamp: I need to do a change order. Well, they have not wanted to pay for that change order. So they are trying to go around me to find another fencing contractor. Yeah. Okay. In the midst of them doing this, I get calls of, Hey, there's this project. I think you should take a look at it. And I'm like,
Jack Carr: Oh,
Cassi Niekamp: exactly. I'm like, Oh, I'm very familiar.
Cassi Niekamp: Yeah. They just don't want to pay my updated number, but that's been the history on this job. They went with the cheapest vendors and the project is way. You know, going sideways. So my experience has been they picked the cheapest subs. They probably chose me because I'm as a woman owned business. And that's important for a lot of government contracts.
Cassi Niekamp: They don't like my updated number. They're trying to figure out a different solution. There's just been like little warmth around, Hey, uh, I know this project is, you know, was supposed to be installed a year ago. Could we pay for stored materials on your lot? Like the amount of materials we have had on our lot.
Cassi Niekamp: It's significant. And we got those over a year and a half ago. And there's been like no, um, little to no communication, just not an enjoyable experience so far. But that could, that could change.
Jack Carr: Yeah. I mean, I can definitely understand that. It sounds like they're the, are they actually a GC or are they just a company that wins these government contracts and subs in them all out?
Jack Carr: Cause I know like from it, from like a supplying standpoint, right. There's a lot of, um, um, I guess suppliers on government contracts that'll get the contract and then go find the product.
Cassi Niekamp: Yep.
Jack Carr: Is that what they're doing to you? Yes.
Cassi Niekamp: They deal with a lot of defense air, air defense bases, defense air force bases, um, around the nation.
Cassi Niekamp: And to their credit, they've actually said this specific air force base in Columbus is the most difficult they've ever worked with. So I think that complexity mixed with the project that going well has been. It's been a real challenge for them. So,
Jack Carr: yeah, no, that makes sense. That makes a lot more sense to me.
Jack Carr: Um, well, hopefully they come through because I know that that can be difficult, especially sitting there on their material, having to store it. Are you guys in a, in a generally safe area where, where you have no worries of anything disappearing as well?
Cassi Niekamp: I think the pipe itself is like 6, 000. So if somebody has the wherewithal to come lift that and haul it away, you would need a tractor semi.
Cassi Niekamp: Um, and access to our forklift, which we keep locked. So, um, you know, good on you if you can get through our, get through our locked, um, chain link. Yeah, yeah, no kidding. I'm, I'm wildly impressed. Um, but yeah, it's kind of difficult to steal.
Jack Carr: That's neat. So, so what, what are the next steps for you guys moving forward?
Jack Carr: So you're, you're going ahead and you're, you're focusing on growing your base of B2B, general contractors, large bids, um, Are there any other next big items or big initiatives that you're pushing through in the next year that are going to get you past that 5 million mark?
Cassi Niekamp: Um, I think just doing the small things well.
Cassi Niekamp: I think getting the, you know, growing up market, like for instance, this year we grew our average ticket sales so far and we're only, you know, four and a half months in, but we've grown it by 4, 500. So our average ticket sale has just, I know it is huge and I'm so glad. Um, because it, it lends to that more of that efficient efficiencies.
Cassi Niekamp: But for Q1, I was really focused on back of house stuff, which I do not enjoy doing. So things like we implemented a 401k, we're working on our company handbook. It should be done by this Friday. We're doing drug training, policy updating. We are doing, um. Health insurance renewals, like yuck. I, I, as a business owner, yeah.
Cassi Niekamp: Those are like my four least favorite things. Okay. If I never talked about insurance again, I would be tickled pink. So, but it's important for hiring and it's important for those back of the house things. So I have been focused on that. So I think we have a good base there now, or should in 30 days. Um, we're going to focus on, I'd like to get a, a residential, maybe a commission only salesperson in the door.
Cassi Niekamp: Um. We've invested in something called ArcSight. Even though I say we don't love residential, it still is so critical for our cash flow. So, um, I, I don't ever see us pulling out of that 100%, but we invested in something called ArcSight, where instead of going to somebody's house, drawing up a, You know, estimate coming back to the office, putting your numbers together and emailing.
Cassi Niekamp: It literally allows you to real time, draw it out on their plot plan on their, you know, give them a price in person. They can sign, submit their deposit there so that you can handle objections. Yeah, it's so good. Um,
Jack Carr: so we just, we just got a fence in. Did
Cassi Niekamp: you
Jack Carr: put aluminum fence? Great. They had something very similar.
Jack Carr: That guy came out with an iPad, walked around our backyard, said, I think you need to get here this four foot, five foot, choose it. Auto grabbed whatever from his price book. And he was able to get my wife's signature on site day of,
Cassi Niekamp: um,
Jack Carr: And no complaints that they were wonderful. But yes, that's, that's the way to go.
Jack Carr: That's an awesome, awesome. You ever
Cassi Niekamp: had a fence installed before?
Jack Carr: No.
Cassi Niekamp: Was that a real shot? Like what did it, did you have any surprises or something you didn't consider?
Jack Carr: Uh, not really. Only because I could see it for the average homeowner, but for, for me, like I could go through and say, I know what your, you know, where your margins are.
Jack Carr: I know what this is. I know what we want to spend. Um, I can see the upsell here, so like I knew exactly what to expect, um, at least from like a business model standpoint. So it made it really easy. But to help you out with how is the experience other than making it all online versus we had another Company come out prior to them and draw it on paper and do the whole thing.
Jack Carr: They didn't really give us a price because they didn't like you said they didn't have one on them. They ended emailing it back to us. Later on, I said, you know, let's just go at these guys there. They have it. It was better. We were able to talk about the, the previous person that was out there and then move forward quickly and they did a great job.
Cassi Niekamp: I can't complain. Um,
Jack Carr: but it was just the, the smoothness of the process was taking away any friction. And I respected that from our side, you know, knowing how difficult that is to get to that point.
Cassi Niekamp: Yeah. It's probably taken like a good 40 hours to get this software where we want it because the pricing is so intricate on the backend.
Cassi Niekamp: Like it has been such a huge lift, but, um,
Jack Carr: and, and when you say that you're referring to, like, do they want to go with. Two inch, two by two corners, three by three corners, four by four, like all those like intricate little details.
Cassi Niekamp: There needs to be a product bundle for every eight foot section down to the screws and it is very time consuming.
Cassi Niekamp: And so the thing though, that I know is going to be a big lift too, is not only the friction that you talk about, you know, removing that with the homeowner, which is going to be amazing. But on the back end, when we do staging, so we have a staging process where either we order materials or all of our wood and chain link, you know, is pulled, that list is auto generated.
Cassi Niekamp: So hypothetically, our salesmen will just double check it. Send it to staging and it's not an extra step where right now it's literally an extra step. So it's great. That's not efficiency. Yeah.
Jack Carr: There we go.
Cassi Niekamp: Um, so I'm really pumped about it.
Jack Carr: That's awesome. And, and so, sorry, I didn't mean to cut you off with my, my wonderful singular fed story.
Jack Carr: Uh, was there anything else that you guys are pushing forward through?
Cassi Niekamp: Yeah. So, okay. So the Q1 was back of house. Mm-Hmm. . I, I need to get on my hiring front foot and get some field installers in here. One of the things that we've never done up until literally two weeks ago is I wouldn't let a subcontractor, we typically are our majority W2 self perform fence.
Cassi Niekamp: Um, however, about a year ago, I started doing a year or two ago. I, I kind of forget the timeframes now, a really amazing. Residential subcontractor crew. They are phenomenal. They're super, um, customer service focused. They're great. And we've had a really good success run with them. I have never let a subcontractor group touch commercial because it's just too important for our business.
Cassi Niekamp: And I wouldn't let it go, but our schedule got so far behind recently that I was introduced to a couple of new subcontractors that can help us out in the commercial space. And it's fresh. Um, there are some like differences of philosophy and culture that I can tell, like need ironed out. Um, but overall excited to where that growth happens to help free us up to then go sell more because, um, if you say you're eight to 12 weeks backed up, like that's just not, you know, people don't like to hear that.
Cassi Niekamp: So we want to be a bit more accommodating and nimble. So that's a big focus.
Jack Carr: Okay, I can definitely see that. Yeah, no comments. We're in the same spot as we hate giving work away to subcontractors, but at the same time, if we back up too far, there's especially in the summer, right? We can't hire them everybody in the winter and keep them on all year round.
Jack Carr: So we do rely on subcontractors for very heavy work. very heavy times of the year where we need extra install labor
Cassi Niekamp: and you don't like to use them because they're costly or it provides a rink cheaper
Jack Carr: for us to do. Um, it's, there's no control over quality.
Cassi Niekamp: So,
Jack Carr: uh, yeah, exactly. So, you know, we have, Last year when we got into it, I ended up having to spend, uh, 3, 000 fixing somebody's 6, 000 square foot mansion because they forgot to put the screws in on the evaporator coil.
Jack Carr: It fell off and then leaked water into their own house.
Cassi Niekamp: Oh boy. Oh boy. Yeah.
Jack Carr: So that, that's what the kind of quality issues. And we do spot checks. We'll come in on them, uh, and take a look and say, Hey, well, this isn't right. This isn't right. Managers are really good at that. But at the end of the day, um, your name is tied to everything.
Cassi Niekamp: Absolutely. Absolutely.
Jack Carr: And so I don't care if they're wearing your shirt, not wearing your shirt, driving our vans, not driving our vans or logos on them. Um, like we need the ability to make sure that they're doing quality work at all times.
Cassi Niekamp: Absolutely.
Jack Carr: But, um, we do have a group that, that we had to, you know, like you said, cultural differences, quality differences, uh, expectations are set and then they're able to run.
Cassi Niekamp: Yeah.
Jack Carr: And so we keep it really tight, but, um, the ones who do, they get paid very well and they do a
Cassi Niekamp: good job. Yeah. I think that's the name of the game. I mean, especially being, um, a woman, like I've had subcontractors call me sweetie, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not just sweetie, you know, we're talking about offense, you know, and I'm like, this just isn't like, I know that maybe historically you use those words out of a term of endearment, but like we're just here doing a business deal.
Cassi Niekamp: This is
Jack Carr: professional. Yes,
Cassi Niekamp: exactly. Yes, exactly. Um, so much like
Jack Carr: John, a lot of our management team is actually women to our head saleswoman is woman is a woman, a head salesperson is a woman. Um, and so she has those problems all the time. And I just say, I'm so sorry that you guys have to go through this.
Jack Carr: It is, it's definitely something being a woman in the trades. There's very few and far between, but, um, I think you all do a very good job. So I commend you.
Cassi Niekamp: It's not an offensive thing. It's just, uh, I think you're misreading the room thing, you know, um, but that's fine. So, um, but the, the thing that I, I am very hell bent on is customer communication.
Cassi Niekamp: And if we say, Hey, Mr. Customer, you are scheduled for Wednesday, like come hell or high water. I'm going to try to beat that or meet that time of frame so that there's no disappointment because you would not believe, especially in residential. If they think you're coming out on Wednesday, like they've called off, they've called off their work.
Cassi Niekamp: Yep. They've sent their daughter to school through separate communication because they want to be there. So it is disruptive if we don't show up when we say, and it's a small thing, but like not done well, I've seen it just turn a project sideways. Um, so that's, that's important to us and we got to get that right with our subcontractors.
Jack Carr: And so you're, you're moving those subcontractors into commercial. That's a big move for this year to kind of
Cassi Niekamp: two different groups. So we're keeping our residential. Um, a residential crew focused on residential, but two different, um, separate LLCs. They have had history working for other fencing contractors around the state.
Cassi Niekamp: And honestly, when he was referred to me, this gentleman was referred to me. It just. This, uh, one of our estimators who's been in fencing for 30, 40 years said he may be one of the best at what he does. That's awesome. Yeah. Like he is phenomenal. Um, but you're going to have some of these other quirks and I want you to be aware of them kind of thing.
Cassi Niekamp: So, you know, uh, to be clear is to be kind is my motto. So I, I would never want a team member or a subcontractor wondering, is Cassie happy with me? Okay. Am I meeting expectations? Like that all has to be addressed swiftly, in my opinion.
Jack Carr: Awesome. Well, uh, we are at time. I, I think we lost John permanently. If you guys haven't heard, uh, you're only hearing my voice right now.
Jack Carr: It's because, uh, John had a code red emergency midway through or towards the end. Um, Cassie, we really appreciate you coming on today. Um, it's great. I went back and listened to the episode. I was so excited because You and I are very much on the same path with a lot of the same problems, and it's really neat to kind of see this growth in other people, um, that were at a similar spot.
Jack Carr: And we're really excited to, to see that move into the future. So I appreciate you coming on today. Um, where can people find you if they want to hear more?
Cassi Niekamp: Oh boy. Are you
Jack Carr: on, are you on the Twitter?
Cassi Niekamp: I am on the Twitter, but I am not very active. So my favorite thing is when Peter Lohman likes to screenshot things on Twitter and then text it to me because he knows I'm going to miss it.
Cassi Niekamp: Um, that's how you know you're like not on Twitter, but once a quarter, um, you can find me on Twitter at Cassie Me Camp. Do not be offended if I do not respond there, um, immediately. But um, best ways, email Cassie at Bowden fence. com and that is, um, yeah, that's it. C A S S I. Awesome.
Jack Carr: Well, thanks, Cassie. I appreciate it.
Jack Carr: And for all of our listeners, a quick reminder, we have our Breaking 5 Million camp June 4th through the 6th. I would love to see you there. Cassie was actually there last time. I'm sure she could say some nice things about us. That
Cassi Niekamp: was wonderful.
Jack Carr: I actually would
Cassi Niekamp: like to do a plug for that. Could I go
Jack Carr: for it?
Cassi Niekamp: Okay. I thought it was brilliant. And really amazing telling that on the flywheel. I know everybody loves to talk about marketing and that's just such like a yummy topic that you could go through all day long. But when you did the flywheel, I hope I'm not spilling any beans, but you, you go through all of the core business operations and then you landed on marketing as a tail end of the workshop.
Cassi Niekamp: It was. Very well done. I love that approach. So helpful. Um, yeah, I just think there is, we're better together as owners and that was such a great example of that.
Jack Carr: Yeah, no, it, it, it's been wonderful to see that afterward to kind of everybody in the, uh, we've said it before, we'll say it again, the emails. And then now moving into the Facebook group is we're really trying to build that community around, uh, like minded owners at the like.
Jack Carr: situations and spots and revenue goals that they're in
Cassi Niekamp: currently.
Jack Carr: So, join us there June 4th through the 6th. Grab your tickets at ownedandoperated. com. Go follow us on our newsletter, see your updates from John or check us out on Twitter at the HVACjack and Wilson companies. Thank you all for listening and thanks Cassie.
Jack Carr: We appreciate you stopping by.
Cassi Niekamp: Thank you John and Jack.
John: Thanks for tuning in to owned and operated the podcast for home service entrepreneurs. If you enjoyed today's episode, please hit the like button and subscribe to the podcast. If you have any questions or topics you'd like us to cover, feel free to reach out.
John: You can find me on Twitter at at Wilson companies. I'll see you next time.
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